Author Topic: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P  (Read 3440 times)

Ari Altman

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TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« on: May 05, 2017, 10:09:17 AM »
In order to review the topic of 4K HDR in articles here on TBG, I recently purchased an LG C6P 65" 4K OLED along with an Oppo UDP-203 4K UHD Player, along with two sample 4K HDR discs (Planet Earth II and Arrival) along with a number of recent Blu-Rays. To be clear, this was an enormous cash outlay, and it's not something I plan on doing regularly for purposes of product reviews!

So, it turns out that OLED tech is nice, but it has some significant problems that all the glowing reviews you'll read on CNET, 4KRatings, and every other TV-focused site just isn't bothering to grapple with. The LG offers fantastic color and contrast as all the reviewers have said, but as a tech reviewer myself, I know that when reviewers get into a pattern, they can miss big problems, and manufacturers know this too, so they design products around how they'll be tested.

The LG has a few major issues that I'm pretty surprised at, and which are a big step down from the 2014 Samsung HU8550 I previously tested with:

(1) when any dejudder is used (even level 1), fast-moving objects will actually be partly deleted from the frame. For example, the tie fighters and X-Wings in the Rogue One battle scene on Scarif are practically erased due to dejudder. You can see the same thing in Arrival when the jets pass over Amy Adams' car in the parking lot scene about 5 minutes into the movie. This is a critical error, and I hope that the Korean firmware update people have been talking about fixes it.

(2) any use of deblur and especially dejudder causes noise around moving objects on contrasting backgrounds. An example would be the sea iguana scene in Planet Earth II, where the black iguana turns into a blur as it skitters across the light sand running from the snakes (this is at exactly 24 minutes in the Islands episode). Another example can be seen at the beginning of chapter 9 on Arrival, when Amy Adams and Forest Whittaker walk into a room and noise surrounds the profiles of their heads against the computer monitors. It's pretty clear that the processing involved for deblur and especially dejudder is far too slow to work on fast-moving objects. My guess is in fact that the LG OLEDs don't have enough processing power, and it may not be an OLED panel limitation. Hard to say until Sony's model hits the market.

(3) The judder in panning shots is quite significant when no deblur or dejudder is in use. Arrival has a number of pan down shots that clearly illustrate this, including the very first seconds of the movie as the camera pans down from the ceiling of Amy Adams' house. You can also see it in chapter 9 with the pan across the computer monitors mentioned above. The judder in La La Land as the camera pans across the drivers sitting in their cars in the first musical number at the beginning of the movie was unacceptable, and I had to turn on dejudder to watch it, which then ruined the Rogue One watching experience a few days later.

I've actually found that the best fix for all of these problems, at least on 4K HDR material that has limited options, is HDR Game mode. It eliminates the noise around moving objects, and also seems to take care of judder to a certain extent. Note that when in this mode, Dejudder and Deblur are shown as available, but have no visual impact when utilized, which suggests to me that they are actually being bypassed despite appearing to be user adjustable.

I'm still working on the best setting for 1080p BD material, but it may be Game Mode as well. I've determined that deblur fixes panning issues to a certain extent, so it's an option where you aren't watching fast motion. Note that I've also determined that both the "smooth" and "clear" options use some dejudder, which is a question that came up earlier in this thread. You might think that clear is DB=10 and DJ=0, but it's not, as any use of either smooth or clear made the jets disappear in Arrival. As far as I'm concerned, dejudder must be at zero.

As I test more Blu-Rays on my Oppo 203, I'll report additional findings. For 4K HDR, I'll only be using HDR Game mode. The processing involved in HDR adds so much more latency that no other option is viable.

I also sometimes use Amazon streaming via LG's built-in app. There's very little 4K HDR material that was actually filmed on modern film equipment (much of it is old nature documentaries or Amazon Original TV episodes, which are far too compressed to be of use as serious test material, similar to Netflix 4K). That being said, if you want to see 4K HDR at its finest, watch Spike Lee's Chi-Raq, which has color and light that's beyond belief. Having no fast-moving action, game mode isn't needed, which is a good thing, because it isn't available when using built-in content apps. There are some panning shots that suffer from judder, and if you'd like to see the problem with using dejudder, skip to 16:15 and watch the panning shot with DJ on and off. With DJ off, there's considerable judder in the billboards behind the woman walking, but with DJ on, her outline blurs in an ocean of noise. The best option for this non-action movie is DB=10, which limits noise while reducing judder slightly.

I think one of the problems people are finding in listing "best settings" is that the optimal setting doesn't just vary by source, it varies by scene. So it's not just whether you're using Blu-Ray or Cable or Amazon/Netflix, it's whether the scene you're watching has panning, fast-moving objects, significant contrast, etc. I'm afraid this in fact means that users are never going to find an optimal setting unless LG fixes the issues in its OLED models, if that's even possible.

Note that to share this with a broader audience, I've posted my findings to AVS Forums, which has a thread dedicated the LG OLED motion issues, but I will be publishing additional insights on 4K HDR more generally here on The Tech Buyer's Guru.

TekHed

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2017, 01:27:16 PM »
This is one of the best technical reviews I've seen of this year's model, the B7 (which I decided to get, returning my C7 as Costco automatically extends the warranty an extra year when you purchase a TV).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9OvPfPd8s0

Long story short, this technical reviewer goes into way more detail than other reviews I've seen and states numerous improvements over last year's models, which may be what you're seeing in the C6...


Ari Altman

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2017, 01:47:43 PM »
This is one of the best technical reviews I've seen of this year's model, the B7 (which I decided to get, returning my C7 as Costco automatically extends the warranty an extra year when you purchase a TV).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9OvPfPd8s0

Long story short, this technical reviewer goes into way more detail than other reviews I've seen and states numerous improvements over last year's models, which may be what you're seeing in the C6...

Interesting review, but it seems the motion issues remain, as he was forced to use Game Mode just as I was on the 2016 model. This isn't surprising, as LG has made no claim that motion has been improved for 2017.

TekHed

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2017, 01:50:53 PM »
Seeing as I'm going to be gaming a lot, probably just keep it in game mode all the time. :)

Ari Altman

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2017, 02:58:53 PM »
Seeing as I'm going to be gaming a lot, probably just keep it in game mode all the time. :)

For gaming, the 2017 model will definitely be better overall, but I'm still concerned that LG's major motion issues aren't covered by review sites that get free products to test. I paid for mine, so I'm free to tell the truth.

TekHed

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2017, 03:21:35 PM »
Is that something a firmware update could fix? It sounds egregious and I just dropped 5 g's

Ari Altman

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2017, 03:36:47 PM »
Is that something a firmware update could fix? It sounds egregious and I just dropped 5 g's

I think it will be fine for gaming. It has to do with the conversion of 24p material (i.e., film) that's a real problem.

TekHed

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2017, 03:39:07 PM »
Well I'm also using it for movies and tv... :(

TekHed

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2017, 08:16:04 PM »
This seems like a pretty legit review...it mentions the judder but tells you how to get rid of it. It says the motion is otherwise fine...

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c7

Ari Altman

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2017, 09:30:35 PM »
This seems like a pretty legit review...it mentions the judder but tells you how to get rid of it. It says the motion is otherwise fine...

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c7

I'd seen that review before. The problem with this review and most professional reviews is that they're using test patterns, not movies. Amd shockingly, he didn't say what to do for 24fps sources like all film in order to get rid of judder.

I encourage you to pick out some favorite scenes ahead of time, watch them on your current TV, and then watch them on your OLED and make sure you're ok with the motion handling.

TekHed

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2017, 09:38:22 PM »
Hm. It's in the box. It's being installed tomorrow to replace my current TV on the wall mount. Not sure how I'll be able to really compare them. Aside from the difficulty of comparing a 1080p 55" plasma with a 65" 4k Oled, especially to my untrained eye...

Ari Altman

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Re: TBG's Initial Thoughts on 4K HDR using the LG C6P
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2017, 10:24:13 PM »
Well, if you're satisfied with it, that's all that counts. A happy untrained eye is better than an unhappy trained one. And my bet is that you'll notice issues right away if there are any.