Author Topic: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)  (Read 34721 times)

Ari Altman

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #225 on: July 29, 2019, 10:41:58 PM »
Hey I am back with another question Ari.

I am interested in upgrading to the ASRock Z390 PHANTOM GAMING-ITX/AC for the better on board Audio and the better on board wifi(dual band).  Do you foresee any problems with this in the SG13.  The rest of the build is exactly as you have written in your guide.

thanks
Bobby

Upgrading to the ASRock Z390 PHANTOM GAMING-ITX/AC could cause a problem. The issue with switching out ITX boards in these builds is that some, like the Phantom, have very large shrouds over the I/O panel. It's mostly decorative, but some also include large heatsinks underneath. And that can actually interfere with installation of the CPU heatsink. As you can see on the standard AsRock Z390M-ITX, there's no shroud over the left side of the board. The Phantom edition appears to have a massive heatsink there.

I've already heard from some users that even the Gigabyte Aorus Z390 ITX causes some problems with the Noctua NH-L12S, but they've been able to work around it by bending the Noctua's heatpipes slightly.

All I'll say is that if you do decide to try the Phantom, it would be extremely helpful if you'd report back on whether it works, but do be prepared for their to be a potential conflict.

brandonlbrewer

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #226 on: July 31, 2019, 06:52:10 AM »
Hello,

I have a question in regard to this SFF build. I noticed a couple of days ago the AMD 5700 XT was listed as a video card option. That was recently changed to the 2070 Super due to more room in the budget with the CPU switching from Intel to AMD.

I am still considering the 5700 XT as I currently have an Intel i7 6700k paired with a Nvidia 980Ti and would like to switch to the other side (AMD CPU with AMD graphics) to try it out. My concern is the temperature of the GPU. I noticed a previous discussion with 8rmartin that discussed temps briefly, however it didn't specifically answer my question. I have seen videos where people stress test the 5700 XT on open benches and get in the 85C-90C range. Would you be concerned about the temperatures in the SFF case? The blower design is ideal for the small case however it seems as if the GPU is prone to overheating before shoving it into a small case.

Thank you in advance! I love this website and have been using it for years, keep up the good work!

Brandon

Ari Altman

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #227 on: July 31, 2019, 07:39:31 AM »
Hello,

I have a question in regard to this SFF build. I noticed a couple of days ago the AMD 5700 XT was listed as a video card option. That was recently changed to the 2070 Super due to more room in the budget with the CPU switching from Intel to AMD.

I am still considering the 5700 XT as I currently have an Intel i7 6700k paired with a Nvidia 980Ti and would like to switch to the other side (AMD CPU with AMD graphics) to try it out. My concern is the temperature of the GPU. I noticed a previous discussion with 8rmartin that discussed temps briefly, however it didn't specifically answer my question. I have seen videos where people stress test the 5700 XT on open benches and get in the 85C-90C range. Would you be concerned about the temperatures in the SFF case? The blower design is ideal for the small case however it seems as if the GPU is prone to overheating before shoving it into a small case.

Thank you in advance! I love this website and have been using it for years, keep up the good work!

Brandon

I'm really glad you posted this here, as it give me a chance to explain the massive changes that came to the build just days after posting the RX 5700 XT build.

You are correct - huge changes came to this build just yesterday based on two products coming in stock: the very first X570 ITX motherboard, the Gigabyte Aorus, which allows the use of the much more affordable Ryzen 5 3600X, and the Zotac RTX 2070 Super, the very first 2070 Super that's under 10.6". Note that both are available in extremely limited quantities at this point. Also take note that we are recommending the 3600X with stock cooler rather than the 3600 with Noctua NH-L12S because I'm fairly certain that the NH-L12S is not compatible with the X570 ITX board when used in the SG13 case. It will overhang too much and won't fit in the case.

As you can see, there are A LOT of moving parts to juggle, but the goal is always to get TBG readers the newest, most advanced gear, and more importantly, the most accurate component picks so that everything actually works in an ITX build.

Now, if you'd like to stick to the RX 5700 XT, you are absolutely free to do so. I am not at all concerned about the 85-90C temps people are hitting on an open bench. Why? Simple:

(1) testing on an open bench is fundamentally flawed. It's perfect for an open-air cooler, which needs a lot of space to blow air around, while not causing any backup of air that would lead to their ingesting their own hot aira, but is detrimental to blower-style coolers, which need directional air (front to back), which an actual case can provide. Frankly, if a professional reviewer is using an open bench to test a blower card, they're intentionally setting up the card to look bad, i.e., they're biased against AMD.

(2) Second of all, whether a certain temperature is "bad" for a processor of any kind depends on its design. GPUs can run hotter than CPUs, and AMD's GPUs are designed to run hotter than Nvidia GPUs, which have throttle points at 60C, 70C, and 80C. An RX 5700 XT at 85C is not an issue. An RTX 2070 Super at that temperature would be a big problem.

So feel free to use the Sapphire RX 5700 XT in the SG13 case. It will work just fine, especially with the high-powered Noctua 1700RPM Redux fan installed in the front. Even this was just changed to increase airflow through the case, moving up from a 1200RPM fan. Lots of thought goes into these guides, as you can surely tell!

And while you're here, don't forget to sign up for the TBG prize drawing celebrating hitting 1,000 members! If you've been using the site for years, you definitely deserve to be in the running!

bensrichards

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #228 on: July 31, 2019, 02:24:09 PM »
Hello,

I have a question in regard to this SFF build. I noticed a couple of days ago the AMD 5700 XT was listed as a video card option. That was recently changed to the 2070 Super due to more room in the budget with the CPU switching from Intel to AMD.

I am still considering the 5700 XT as I currently have an Intel i7 6700k paired with a Nvidia 980Ti and would like to switch to the other side (AMD CPU with AMD graphics) to try it out. My concern is the temperature of the GPU. I noticed a previous discussion with 8rmartin that discussed temps briefly, however it didn't specifically answer my question. I have seen videos where people stress test the 5700 XT on open benches and get in the 85C-90C range. Would you be concerned about the temperatures in the SFF case? The blower design is ideal for the small case however it seems as if the GPU is prone to overheating before shoving it into a small case.

Thank you in advance! I love this website and have been using it for years, keep up the good work!

Brandon

I'm really glad you posted this here, as it give me a chance to explain the massive changes that came to the build just days after posting the RX 5700 XT build.

You are correct - huge changes came to this build just yesterday based on two products coming in stock: the very first X570 ITX motherboard, the Gigabyte Aorus, which allows the use of the much more affordable Ryzen 5 3600X, and the Zotac RTX 2070 Super, the very first 2070 Super that's under 10.6". Note that both are available in extremely limited quantities at this point. Also take note that we are recommending the 3600X with stock cooler rather than the 3600 with Noctua NH-L12S because I'm fairly certain that the NH-L12S is not compatible with the X570 ITX board when used in the SG13 case. It will overhang too much and won't fit in the case.

As you can see, there are A LOT of moving parts to juggle, but the goal is always to get TBG readers the newest, most advanced gear, and more importantly, the most accurate component picks so that everything actually works in an ITX build.

Now, if you'd like to stick to the RX 5700 XT, you are absolutely free to do so. I am not at all concerned about the 85-90C temps people are hitting on an open bench. Why? Simple:

(1) testing on an open bench is fundamentally flawed. It's perfect for an open-air cooler, which needs a lot of space to blow air around, while not causing any backup of air that would lead to their ingesting their own hot aira, but is detrimental to blower-style coolers, which need directional air (front to back), which an actual case can provide. Frankly, if a professional reviewer is using an open bench to test a blower card, they're intentionally setting up the card to look bad, i.e., they're biased against AMD.

(2) Second of all, whether a certain temperature is "bad" for a processor of any kind depends on its design. GPUs can run hotter than CPUs, and AMD's GPUs are designed to run hotter than Nvidia GPUs, which have throttle points at 60C, 70C, and 80C. An RX 5700 XT at 85C is not an issue. An RTX 2070 Super at that temperature would be a big problem.

So feel free to use the Sapphire RX 5700 XT in the SG13 case. It will work just fine, especially with the high-powered Noctua 1700RPM Redux fan installed in the front. Even this was just changed to increase airflow through the case, moving up from a 1200RPM fan. Lots of thought goes into these guides, as you can surely tell!

And while you're here, don't forget to sign up for the TBG prize drawing celebrating hitting 1,000 members! If you've been using the site for years, you definitely deserve to be in the running!

Can I piggy-back a question of my own on Brandon's?  Ari, what's your take on blower vs non-blower for Silverstone's FTZ-01/RVZ-01/RVZ-03 cases?  Those cases all have vents over the gpu, but it also looks like the only way to exhaust hot air from the gpu side of the case is through the back.  What do you think is the best cooler approach in that situation?

Best,
Ben

Ari Altman

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #229 on: July 31, 2019, 02:59:08 PM »


Can I piggy-back a question of my own on Brandon's?  Ari, what's your take on blower vs non-blower for Silverstone's FTZ-01/RVZ-01/RVZ-03 cases?  Those cases all have vents over the gpu, but it also looks like the only way to exhaust hot air from the gpu side of the case is through the back.  What do you think is the best cooler approach in that situation?

Best,
Ben

Ben - this is a question a lot of folks have - in fact, just a few days ago, another reader asked this same question on the previous page. So I'll again post this link to my extensive analysis of a blower versus open-air cooler in the SilverStone RVZ02 chassis. The short answer is it's complicated, but the ventilation of the Raven series of cases is somewhat lacking on the GPU side. It's actually quite good on the CPU side, due to the different design of CPU coolers.

In my personal SG13 case, I have always used blower-style GPUs, as I'm always running high-end gear, and while a blower is admittedly loud (I was super-annoyed at my blower 1080 Ti when I had it mounted in there), it's system suicide to put a hot-blooded open-air GPU in the SG13. When it comes to the Ravens, the answer is a bit more complicated. I would make sure that the GPU is at the top of the case (when standing vertically), and that the dust filters are removed, because they significantly reduce airflow. In this situation, open-air is probably superior.

Ari Altman

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #230 on: July 31, 2019, 03:17:53 PM »
By the way, anyone active in this thread who lives in the continental US should enter TBG's prize drawing!

Urbanllama

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #231 on: August 05, 2019, 06:31:26 PM »
Hello I just joined this forum so forgive me if I misstep, but I don't see why the nh-l12s was removed from the suggested list. I believe Ari said it would hang too much but we're using the same ram and psu size. Maybe I'm missing something that someone could explain. Also if the nh-l12s truly doesn't fit is there any recommendation beyond the stock cooler for the pcu? Cheers

Ari Altman

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #232 on: August 05, 2019, 08:40:20 PM »
Hello I just joined this forum so forgive me if I misstep, but I don't see why the nh-l12s was removed from the suggested list. I believe Ari said it would hang too much but we're using the same ram and psu size. Maybe I'm missing something that someone could explain. Also if the nh-l12s truly doesn't fit is there any recommendation beyond the stock cooler for the pcu? Cheers

Welcome to the Forum, Urbanllama.

When it comes to ITX builds, far more than the RAM and PSU matter when it comes to fitting everything in. This build has been completely redesigned around the Ryzen 3000 platform. The NH-L12S will not fit in this system due to the change in motherboard, which has a very different socket placement. The NH-L12S will hand right out of the case. You can see additional explanation four posts up.

As for a cooler that might work (remembering that the 3600X comes with the excellent 72mm-tall Wraith Spire cooler, whereas Intel CPUs comes with no cooler at all), the 69mm-tall Scythe Big Shuriken 3 has a very high chance of working due to its significant offset, but because I have not been able to try this combination, I cannot recommend it in the guide. If you decide to give it a try, please report back on whether it works.

Ari Altman

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #233 on: August 06, 2019, 09:01:54 PM »
Hello I just joined this forum so forgive me if I misstep, but I don't see why the nh-l12s was removed from the suggested list. I believe Ari said it would hang too much but we're using the same ram and psu size. Maybe I'm missing something that someone could explain. Also if the nh-l12s truly doesn't fit is there any recommendation beyond the stock cooler for the pcu? Cheers

Quick but important update: the SG13 build has been reverted back to thee 9700K and NH-L12S combo. There just isn't sufficient X570 ITX board availability to go Ryzen 3000 at this point in an SFF build.

beachedaz

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Saphire Pulse 5700 XT - will it fit?
« Reply #234 on: August 28, 2019, 11:28:25 PM »
Hey TPG Team, excellent work by the way enjoy reading all the research, posts and updates and finally jumping on and giving it a go so first time posting on here.
Just wondering if the Saphire Pulse 5700 XT would fit in this build? the card dimensions are 254mm x 135mm x 46.5mm as they seem to have achieved a better idle fan noise and the fins are parallel so a certain amount of flow will still exit the back of this build.
The standard Radeon 5700 XT card dimensions being 272mm x 111mm x 36mm
I have only just ordered the case and not received it yet to check. But would love to start ordering the other components. Any thoughts on shifting the power supply to the front on this build and allowing better/bigger fan CPU cooling in the rear or perhaps water cooling CPU.... although I imagine this takes it slightly outside the $1500 build? Notice you've changed fans in this latest build too... improvement in noise, cost or cooling over the Noctua NH-L12s? Cheers

Ari Altman

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Re: Saphire Pulse 5700 XT - will it fit?
« Reply #235 on: August 28, 2019, 11:43:25 PM »
Hey TPG Team, excellent work by the way enjoy reading all the research, posts and updates and finally jumping on and giving it a go so first time posting on here.
Just wondering if the Saphire Pulse 5700 XT would fit in this build? the card dimensions are 254mm x 135mm x 46.5mm as they seem to have achieved a better idle fan noise and the fins are parallel so a certain amount of flow will still exit the back of this build.
The standard Radeon 5700 XT card dimensions being 272mm x 111mm x 36mm
I have only just ordered the case and not received it yet to check. But would love to start ordering the other components. Any thoughts on shifting the power supply to the front on this build and allowing better/bigger fan CPU cooling in the rear or perhaps water cooling CPU.... although I imagine this takes it slightly outside the $1500 build? Notice you've changed fans in this latest build too... improvement in noise, cost or cooling over the Noctua NH-L12s? Cheers

Welcome to the TBG Forum, beachedaz!

While the 5700 XT Pulse is definitely quieter, it also definitely won't fit in this system! It's far too tall, and too wide as well, since it's 2.3 slots thick. Definitely a no-go. The only 5700 XT that will fit is the reference model.

The NH-L12S is actually out of stock right now, hence the switch to the Scythe Big Shuriken 3 model. I'll actually be getting the Scythe against the NH-L12S and SilverStone's NT06-Pro next month, which should be interesting!

As for shifting the PSU to the front, that's not actually possible unless you use a different case. Some models definitely use that layout, but they end up being bigger.

Scribe

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #236 on: August 29, 2019, 12:28:36 AM »
Hey there!

Im a little new to the PC building community. Ive assembled two rigs so far, but neither of them were mine, so this is my first time choosing components myself. I used this ultra compact as a guide, but I wanted some feedback on the components I found on my own. Im almost certain the components will fit inside the SG13 chaise, but I know it can tricky finding things that are comparable.

This is what I have as of right now:
CPU - Intel i7 9700k
Cooling - Scythe Big Shuriken 3 Low Profile
Mobo - Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WiFi
Graphics Card - Zotac GeForce RTX 2070 OC Mini
RAM - Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB DDR4
SSD - Sabrent Rocket M.2 2TB
Power Supply - EVGA SuperNOVA 650w G3
Fan - Corsair Air Series AF120 Quiet Ed.

Any feedback is really appreciated. Thanks.

Ari Altman

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #237 on: August 29, 2019, 05:05:40 AM »
Hey there!

Im a little new to the PC building community. Ive assembled two rigs so far, but neither of them were mine, so this is my first time choosing components myself. I used this ultra compact as a guide, but I wanted some feedback on the components I found on my own. Im almost certain the components will fit inside the SG13 chaise, but I know it can tricky finding things that are comparable.

This is what I have as of right now:
CPU - Intel i7 9700k
Cooling - Scythe Big Shuriken 3 Low Profile
Mobo - Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WiFi
Graphics Card - Zotac GeForce RTX 2070 OC Mini
RAM - Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB DDR4
SSD - Sabrent Rocket M.2 2TB
Power Supply - EVGA SuperNOVA 650w G3
Fan - Corsair Air Series AF120 Quiet Ed.

Any feedback is really appreciated. Thanks.

Welcome to the TBG Forum, Scribe!

It's always fun building a small form factor PC - sort of like a 3D puzzle! With that said, there are a few components on that list that actually won't work. First, you've chosen an ATX-class power supply. While that in theory can fit in the case, it will make everything else NOT fit, including the cooler. So that's not what you want. Definitely stick to the EVGA Supernova 550GM or the SilverStone SX500-G. These are SFX-class power supplies and are about half the size.

Second, you've listed a motherboard that's also ATX class. Again, stick with the Gigabyte ITX model. It's a bit confusing that the small form factor components can go by either "ITX" or "SFX", but one refers to the motherboard size, and the other the power supply size.

Now, there are a couple of other components that I have concerns about. The 32GB kit might work, but it's unclear from what you've listed, as it may be 2 sticks or 4 sticks. You can only use a 2 stick kit, and it must be low-profile. I recommend the 2x16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR-3200 kit. Finally, you've listed the RTX 2070 OC Mini, but that's been discontinued. If you can find it for $450 or less, it's not a bad choice, but it is slower than the Radeon RX 5700 XT that costs $400.

One last tip - while the Sabrent 2TB SSD you list is a decent choice, I'd probably go for the newer SX8200 Pro 2TB, which will provide better overall performance.

Hope that helps!

beachedaz

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Re: Saphire Pulse 5700 XT - will it fit?
« Reply #238 on: August 31, 2019, 11:48:18 PM »
Hey TPG Team, excellent work by the way enjoy reading all the research, posts and updates and finally jumping on and giving it a go so first time posting on here.
Just wondering if the Saphire Pulse 5700 XT would fit in this build? the card dimensions are 254mm x 135mm x 46.5mm as they seem to have achieved a better idle fan noise and the fins are parallel so a certain amount of flow will still exit the back of this build.
The standard Radeon 5700 XT card dimensions being 272mm x 111mm x 36mm
I have only just ordered the case and not received it yet to check. But would love to start ordering the other components. Any thoughts on shifting the power supply to the front on this build and allowing better/bigger fan CPU cooling in the rear or perhaps water cooling CPU.... although I imagine this takes it slightly outside the $1500 build? Notice you've changed fans in this latest build too... improvement in noise, cost or cooling over the Noctua NH-L12s? Cheers

Welcome to the TBG Forum, beachedaz!

While the 5700 XT Pulse is definitely quieter, it also definitely won't fit in this system! It's far too tall, and too wide as well, since it's 2.3 slots thick. Definitely a no-go. The only 5700 XT that will fit is the reference model.

The NH-L12S is actually out of stock right now, hence the switch to the Scythe Big Shuriken 3 model. I'll actually be getting the Scythe against the NH-L12S and SilverStone's NT06-Pro next month, which should be interesting!

As for shifting the PSU to the front, that's not actually possible unless you use a different case. Some models definitely use that layout, but they end up being bigger.


After extensive research it appears as though the sapphire pulse will fit with some ''minor'' modifications to the SG13 frame. I found this link on reddit showing the photos of this build https://imgur.com/a/taGscGX and https://imgur.com/a/Ot9kEQS and the original link https://www.reddit.com/r/sffpc/comments/cujdoe/fitting_a_sapphire_rx5700xt_in_an_sg13/     not sure on how badly this will affect temperatures on the GPU over the reference card but notice he's added another fan with cable ties next to the CPU NH-L12s cooler on the side of the case. Also this does not appear to interfere with the 2.5" drive. Anyway just adding this for interest.

Ari Altman

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Re: The TBG Extreme Gaming Mini-ITX Build (SG13)
« Reply #239 on: September 01, 2019, 12:16:48 AM »
Thanks for the links. Impressive that somebody has actually tried this exact thing, given that no more than a few dozen Pulse cards have even entered the retail market at this point.

As an aside, in addition to the obvious concerns with damaging the case, what that poster has not mentioned is that you cannot insert or remove the card without removing both the drive tray and potentially the power supply as well. The case is actually designed to have cards inserted through the front panel, but the Pulse is too tall to do so.