Author Topic: HTPC/Server for my house  (Read 1773 times)

dpluigi

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 05:31:24 PM »
Thank you Ari.

Core i5-7500 would be enough, my thinking ios this is a system that I'd be using for about 5years, and I'll dable with VR too.  I will upgrade my TV to 4K later, which when I'll buy and install a dedicated Graphic card like the  MSI GeForce GTX 1050 2GB LP.  Either way I'll add  Noctua NH-L9x65 quiet cpu cooler.

MSI Pro Series Intel H270 DDR4 HDMI USB 3 CrossFire ATX Motherboard (H270 PC MATE), which has the Intel Smart Response Technology Raid Feature and I could SSD for disk caching and have option sRaid 0,1,5, 10. 

SilverStone GD09 ATX HTPC Case, which will give me plenty of space for upgrades (1 or even 2 graphic cards in the future),  quieter and easy to keep cool case.

LG Electronics 14x SATA Blu-ray Internal Rewriter without Software, Black (WH14NS40)  with PowerDVD 16 or 17.

With four RAM slots I could start with one 16Gb and soon after add a second to spread the spending and since the price keeps going down.  32Gb will be more than enough and the Mobo can take up to 64Gb, which would be splurging.

I'll start with one m.2 SSD drive like the Crucial MX300.

The SilverStone 550W power supply you suggested is perfect, using PSU calculated it looks like 550W is more than enough and yet again if I did add drives Graphic card(s) and PCI cards.. 650W might give a little more headroom., don't you think?

I'm ready to order the parts.  Thank you again for all your inputs and suggestions.
D

Ari Altman

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2017, 05:45:56 PM »
First things first, let me be frank: Intel Smart Response is a gimmick. You don't want to use an SSD for caching, you want to use it as your main drive. SSD caching may have made sense in the year 2011 when 80GB SSDs were $300, but it makes zero sense today.

If you go with the larger GD09 case, then get an ATX motherboard like the Gigabyte H270 Gaming 3. Also, you don't want to run a system with 1 stick of RAM - that significantly reduces performance. You need two sticks for dual-channel operation. Get a 2x8GB kit, specifically this Crucial DDR4-2400 kit. And keep in mind that 32GB won't be necessary until this system is completely and utterly obsolete. That is not an upgrade I'd ever suggest for an HTPC.

One last thing: 550W is way overpowered for this build. Spending even an extra penny on a 650W power supply is ill-advised. Go with the SilverStone Platinum 550W. It's not enough for dual video cards, but honestly, you're not going to be able to run dual cards in an HTPC case like this without serious overheating. It's not made for that.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 08:39:13 PM by Ari Altman »

dpluigi

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 07:32:29 AM »
Thank for the clarifications, I just read about the Intel Smart Response feature, what matters is the Raid capability and all these Mobo options have it.
Gigabyte H270 Gaming 3 is a great suggestions, thank you for pointing it out and it seems to have great fan control features that would replace apps I had on my old build from almost 7 years ago. It has a couple of features I forgot to take into account nad great port distribution, USB selections and dual m.2.  The integrated 7.1 and HD 3D sounds along with VR are cool.  As a side note I dabbled in VR research over 10 years ago and this past couple of years augmented reality and VR have finally taken off - exciting possibilities.  Interestingly I was just looking up this Z270 intwel chipset GAMING PRO CARBON motherboard, which has a Gigabit Lan capability which I would leverage in the future too for my home network streaming, backup (NAS applications).

Regarding the CPU,at this point I will wait on the graphic card a few months (they evolve all the time so it might be good and will have a better idea of which then, probably with rear exauhst).  So I can go either way i5-7600K or i7-7700k and i am tempting to max out now on that front.  Talking with my fiancee this system will be in HTPC, with NAS use, as well as some office and research work.  We might use it for some Matlab+Simulink calculations considering the upgrade with our current PCs.

Now that I have narrowed down to a general mobo form factor set to ATX to fit in SilverStone GD09 ATX HTPC Case I have to check the best and quietest cpu cooler that is compatible and will fit.  From you benchmarcks and other builds:
Noctua NH-L9x65
Noctua NH-U12S SE-AM4
Noctua NH-U14S
or
CRYORIG M9i Mini Tower Cooler for INTEL CPUs
Cryorig H5 or H7
These are some of the reviews you wrote that I skimming through, thanks for the quality resources:
http://techbuyersguru.com/low-profile-cpu-cooler-shootout-striking-balance
http://techbuyersguru.com/120mm-cpu-cooler-shootout-best-budget
http://techbuyersguru.com/140mm-cpu-cooler-shootout-finding-sweet-spot

Thank you also for clarifying about the PSU, those PSU calculator can be confusing and I was looking at the most I put in, which might be realistic.  It'd be helpful to have the curve to see where are the 80-90% points to better gauge the sweet spot.

Thank you again Ari. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 08:43:55 AM by dpluigi »

Ari Altman

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 10:13:42 AM »
I have extensively tested the SilverStone GD09, but have not published a review of it yet. One of the reasons I chose to delay that review is that I was very concerned about the CPU cooler compatibility that SilverStone published for this case. In short, it was misleading. If you use an optical drive, your CPU cooler choices are extremely limited. Just get the Noctua NH-L9x65. It's all that will fit. You simply cannot use a tower cooler of any type with an optical drive installed.

For your applications, yes, you could go with the Core i7, and if you chose to go with the Z270 Gaming Pro Carbon, then step up to the Core i7-7700K. Remember you need a Z270 board, not an H270 board, to support overclocking of "K" chips. The Z270 Gaming Pro Carbon is a great motherboard, which you can see in action in TBG's 2017 High-End Assembly Guide.

dpluigi

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2017, 11:46:55 AM »
Thank you for the heads up and sharing your insight.   At this point GD09 is my first choice, but I would be fine in space on my TV stand with the GD10 and even GD08, especially if it helps with over flow and cooling options.  Also,  It looks like my systems borrows from  TBG's 2017 High-End Assembly Guide you suggested and also the The $1,500 Ultra-Compact Mini-ITX PC Build (VR ready).

I called SilverStone to help me choose compatible CPU cooler before just getting your reply.  With the optical drive the tech support quoted 88mm left for pretty much any of these three case (GD 08, GD 09, GD 10).  JHe mentioned that the design of their Cooling Towers AR 07 and AR 08 fits.  He said that their design allows it.  I just wondered how much louder and trade off in cooling for TDP +65W it'd be.

Now that my CPU selection ironed out, is the SilverStone 550W Strider Platinum series PSU still your recommendation for the  Z270 Gaming Pro Carbon and i7-7700K CPU in a one of those Grandia Series case or should it be increased to 650, 750 ,...?  (Your high end gaming system goes to 850W)
Anyhow, I trust that you have tinkered with this cpu tower enough that I'll order the Noctua NH-L9x65 and I could return it if there is a better (tower) cooler is found.

It is my day off work so I can finalize this.

Thank you a bunch again.
D
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:41:28 AM by dpluigi »

Ari Altman

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2017, 12:11:58 PM »
Thank you for the heads up and sharing your insight.   At this point GD09 is my first choice, but I would be fine in space on my TV stand with the GD10 and even GD08, especially if it helps with over flow and cooling options.

 I just called SilverStone before getting your reply to help me choose.  WIth the optical drive the tech support quoted 88mm left for pretty much any of these three case (GD 08, GD 09, GD 10).  JHe mentioned that the design of their Cooling Towers AR 07 and AR 08 fits.  He said that their design allows it.  I just wondered how much louder and trade off in cooling for TDP +65W it'd be.

Now that my CPU selection ironed out, is the SilverStone 550W Strider Platinum series PSU still your recommendation for the  Z270 Gaming Pro Carbon and i7-7700K CPU in a one of those Grandia Series case?
Anyhow, I trust that you have tinkered with this cpu tower enough that I'll order the Noctua NH-L9x65 and I could return it if there is a better (tower) cooler is found.

It is my day off work so I can finalize this.

Thank you a bunch again.
D

SilverStone has provided me samples of nearly all of its coolers, so I of course have tested the AR07 and AR08 in the GD09 case. They don't fit, and I provided my feedback to SilverStone on this. What they'd like you to do is mount the fan on the wrong side of the cooler so that it blows directly into the optical drive, rather than out of the case. That's bad system building, which is something I'll never endorse, and which I don't consider a legitimate use of the coolers. Here's a photo of my testing of this setup that I provided to SilverStone along with my critique of their specifications:



The Noctua NH-L9x65 is a perfect fit for this system, and you don't need to get the GD08 or GD10 - they are gigantic and really not something you'll want sitting on your AV console. The GD09 is the largest HTPC case that I recommend.

And yes, 550W is more than enough - in fact, it's exactly what's recommended for the $1,500 High-End Gaming PC Buyer's Guide, which uses a Core i7-7700K and GTX 1070 video card. Because I test all of this gear using a power meter, I know how much it actually draws. Online power supply calculators are very, very rough approximations, and they always overestimate how much power you need because they assume you'll be using a low-quality power supply, which the SilverStone Platinum most definitely is not!

dpluigi

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2017, 12:43:46 PM »
Perfect timing.  Thank you for the detailed response, I agree this is a poor cpu fan cooler positioning and I'm glad to have mentioned my call so you could clarify this to the PC builder community on your thread.
Regarding the PSU I saw you used 850 for gaming system that had the same mobo and cpu.  It makes and I noted to  the variatins between calculators.

Regarding the case, I have space adjacent to my Pioneer receiver or behind the TV. I thought a little more dead space would help with quieter operation and easier cooling.  Also, the GD 09 and GD 10 seemed to be the same internal layout and dimensions, difference being the front plate (I thought), the kicker is with the GD08, which is deeper - all three have about the same height though.
GD08      17.32" (W) x 6.89" (H) x 16.73" (D), 32.7 liters
GD09      17.32" (W) x 6.69" (H) x 14.09" (D), 26.8 liters
GD10      17.4" (W) x 6.73" (H) x 14.25" (D), 27.4 liters
Speeking of big HTPC case, I cam accross the Fractal Node 605, it is huge.
My restriction would really be 9.25" high and 17.5" along the front panel.  I am settled with and looking forward to the GD09, even though my system starts to be close to a mid/high end gaming system typical found in full size ATX case.   The issue is now to find a vendor which can ship the SilverStone GD 09 case and the 550W Strider Platinum series PSU before what Amazon.com quoted, May 10=11th at the earliest?!

One final details. it looks like the GD 09 case does not come with fans (120mm).  Do you have a recommendation for addon case fans (quiet and efficient) especially since you ave extensively tinkered with this case? 
I was thinking something along the line of Noctua  but there are so many to choose from.
Arctic F12 PWM 120mm Fan is the oe suggested in the build you referred.  Is three of these all the fans I'd need then?
http://techbuyersguru.com/1500-high-end-gaming-pc-build

I wanted to tel;l you that I keep coming across great build ideas and reviews on your webpage.  TBG techbuyersguru.com is great found.

Thank  you again for the great details and quick response on this posts. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 01:32:47 PM by dpluigi »

Ari Altman

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2017, 01:56:49 PM »
Here you go: SilverStone GD09 shipped from B&H Photo Video. Same price as Amazon, ships out on Monday, will likely arrive by Thursday thanks to free expedited shipping. B&H is great about that.

Note that the GD09 comes with two fans, and that's likely all you'll need to start. When you buy a video card, you can add a third fan, and yes, the Arctic F12 PWM is great.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 02:00:34 PM by Ari Altman »

dpluigi

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2017, 04:04:53 PM »
I did locate and had put aside (reserved) the SilverSTone GD09 case at the MicroDirect center and, following Murphy'slaw, I just receive an email stating my order was cancelled?!
Yes, I saw that B&H had it and that it would ship till Monday and was hopeful that I could get it earlier.  All my other parts arrive by Sunday or Monday by the way. On a side note, since your last post, I learned that the GD10 has all three fans and is about $10 more.  So I am looking for either GD09 or GD10, they are similar in sizes.  B&H seems like the last place besides an Amazon third party seller, Store123.

The order i made included the three Artic F12 pwm fans and forgot to remove them and can return them - so i guess i can try them.

dpluigi

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2017, 05:43:58 PM »
Good afternoon,

I received parts already and will have a case mid week.  Regarding the cooler you said the Noctua NH-L9x65 would work great.  Does it mean that the Noctua NH-L12 would not fit in and/or would not help dissipate more heat then?

In the NH L9x65 TDP guidelines, it is reported that NH L9x65 with i7-7700K has a TDP rating of 91W and that this CPU cooler is "only recommended with good case ventilation and AVX-offset".  Did you notice any overheating issue during your tests or is the case provides the required good ventilation.

Regarding the CPU tower cooler suggested by Silverstone, blowing into the Optical drive doesn't make much common sense as you pointed out and shown in your picture.  From your experience is the optical drive generating significant heat in comparison with the rest of the ambient positive pressure air in the GD09 case? 
In hindsight, I am wondering if, as a compromise and it would still be advantageous to use such tower cpu cooler (instead of the compact low profile option) when the fan is pulling air through the fins and out to back of the case, away from the optical drive.

My gut feeling is when using the DVD or Bluray for movies the load is low and/or the drive heat is not very hot that a slight overlap with CPU tower would perform better than low profile CPU cooler. You have more experience and have probably tested this. The i7-7700k TDP comment from Noctua made me pause and wonder what are the trade offs between over crowded very smaller and compact low profile cpu cooler.  In that respect this brings back to mind your earlier comment about i5 vs i7.  I hope the i7 will be in relative lesser load to be in the clear.

Of course, I will be able to test with the low profile cooler and there is no graphic card at the moment to increase ambient hot air.  By the way I have ginormous tow cooler in my old i7 case so this looks really compact.
 
Thanks,
D

« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:40:06 AM by dpluigi »

Ari Altman

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2017, 07:16:25 PM »
The Noctua NH-L12 is a great cooler, and won the low-profile cooler shootout on TBG, as you may have seen. But at 93mm tall, it's too tall to use in that case with an optical drive. And no, I would not use it in "low-profile" mode without the top 120mm fan, as it will perform like a $30 cooler despite costing $60!

The DVD drive doesn't produce any heat, so that's not an issue. The issue is airflow. You could get an AR08 and have the fan pull air through, but where will it pull air from? There are no air intakes in the front of the case, and the fans at the side of the case will be blowing across the tower, not through it. In other words, the various fans just aren't going to be working in unison.

I think you'll be fine with the L9x65. Set it up so the fins are perpendicular to the sides of the case, allowing air to blow through them from the side fans (which of course should be set up as intakes, not exhaust). You are setting up an HTPC, not a gaming rig, so just leave the 7700K at stock and the L9x65 will be OK. Yes, you should use an AVX offset, which you can set up in the UEFI. Give it a -4 offset and it will run fine during heavy AVX video loads.

dpluigi

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2017, 11:08:00 AM »
Thank yo for clarifying I was noticing the gap on the optical drive but didn't realize that either way the tower cooler and it fan would be sitting and pulling from across the case main airflow.

I just received the Motherboard and PSU today and the last item on build is the GD09 case itself.  I'll mount the cpu and cooling system, and ram and could even install the OS while bench testing the Mobo if I am daring using good insulated surface and being grounded as usual. I will mostly take time to review the slew of software included when I get home tonight.  I am wondering which was would be truly useful to have and which one are bloatware.
Command Center seems neat, but wondering if I need the Live Update, and I don't know what to make of NAHIMIC AUDIO audio.
I am looking forward to discover the UEFI BIOS, it looks like it has some great features - in particular program Fan speed profiles (I used Speedfan application in the past).

I'll adjust the AVX Offset and use your suggestion s for starting point.

Thank you for all your comments and suggestions.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 12:06:06 PM by dpluigi »

dpluigi

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2017, 04:32:21 PM »
Hi Ari,

I hope you made good progress on your guide using the Silverstone GD09.  Your pointers helped a great deal, and with all the part in hands a lot of my earlier questions got answers and it was easier to visualize the layout with the case in hand.  The motherboard and components were put together Monday.  It worked out first time and installed Windows 10 Pro with just one Bitdefender antivirus. Wednesday evening I dropped the motherboard in and hopefully I'll be able to finish organize and clean-up the wires and install HTPC softwares (Plex, VLC, WMPC, ...) and other programs.

The only hitch when connecting devices was to realize that using one m.2 SATA drive means that  SATA 1 becomes unavailable - my optical drive wouldn't work at first because of that.  Regarding the m.2 connectors I noted that in one of your guide you used the second connector which has a shield and leave connector 1 empty.  Does it helps dissipate heat and would you recommend it?

There is only one 3 wire 120mm fan (Model HA1225L 12SA-Z DC12V 0.33Amp) included with the GD09 case, setup as intake fan to create positive pressure.  At the moment in the voltage is regulated for fan speed using the Smart Fan option.
Remember that I already had ordered Arctic F12 PWM fans. I looked for comparative reviews and didn't find much. What is your take, would you swap the one Silerstone 120mm with an Artic F12 performance-wise (PWM, flow, quietness)?

The ambient air was cool here in Denver during my first evening runs and I didn't carry any stress test to see how well the Noctua helps cooling the cpu in this configuration.  For future reference though, if I need to cool the case more more (with an added graphic card and/or HDDs), would you add a second intake fan next to the one currently place to the right-side ( blowing on the under side of the optical drive).  Wouldn't make  more sense to place to the adjacent position (right-side rear 120mm spot)?


I am looking forward to your guide after this experience.  Thank you for answering all my questions.  It has been a great resource.



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Thanks again[/size]

Ari Altman

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2017, 05:00:41 PM »
dpluigi,

Happy to hear your build is coming along. I will eventually publish a step-by-step guide using the GD09, likely closely following the brand-new $1,300 High-End HTPC Buyer's Guide , published yesterday. The SilverStone GD09 has now earned a prime recommendation on the site!

The SATA port being disabled is a frustrating catch. I should probably mention that in the guide. It actually depends if you use a SATA-based or PCIe-based M.2 drive; only SATA-based M.2 drives will disable SATA ports. Anyway, sorry you had trouble with that.

In terms of the M.2 slot heatsink, yes, the MSI Z270 Gaming Pro Carbon has a shield on one of the slots, and it will reduce heat for single-sided drives (i.e., ones that have chips only on top). It actually causes heat buildup for double-sided drives, as heat gets trapped underneath. In any event, feel free to switch it, but SATA drives really don't run that hot, and you should only switch it over if you install a high-end video card above the slot. The video card tends to heat up the M.2 area quite a bit, and the best thing you can do is get the drive away from the video card - this is more important than the heatsink.

By the way, you're right that the GD09 has just one fan - I mistakenly remembered it having two. You can use your Arctic fans, which are a bit better, and set up the two right side as intake and the left side as exhaust. Once you have a video card in there, set up your two Arctic fans on the right side as exhausts, and the left side as an intake. This will provide better overall cooling for the video card, which is the prime heat generator in the case.

dpluigi

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Re: HTPC/Server for my house
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2017, 09:20:46 AM »
Thanks.

Two of the three 120mm artic fan will be placed as intake on the right side (Optical drive side).  Regarding the left side empty 120mm opening, did you mean that I should use a third 120mm fan as exhaust?
It make sense to reverse the wflow with a graphic card since a card like GTX-1070 has its two board fans facing the left side, which then would be best to bring in fresh air (i.e. intake).

Speaking of cooling I noticed that in Chris's extreme 4K Gaming HTPC a Silverstone GD09 case , Chris used a Corsair Hydro H60 liquid cooling which could be fitted in this case.  It is about the same price point ($10 DIFFERENCE) that the Noctua NH-L12 low profile cpu fan.  Would the Corsair Hydro H60 be more efficient at cooling in all instances and quiet that the Noctua vertical flow cpu fan cooler?
I could easily return the Noctual cpu fan cooler and replace it with the hydro or similar compact liquid cooling.  On a side note, I expect to have a warm summer since we don't have ac and our new rental place ambiiant temperature might get warm by day (+85F or more).
If I stay with the Notcua, I haven't use the "low noise adapter" cable and it seems quiet enough with our cool temperature (in the basement) 65F, system temp (Mobo) 89F, CPU 105F.

Regarding the m.2 SATA drive, it was silly because I did read the manual and understood that only reduced the overall SATA devices from 6 to 5 and did realize it was discriminate to a SATA connector port. I put my system in Part picker after the build and it did warn me.  Definitely worth mentioning in a your user guide.  I'll move it to the shield when install the card. 

On a side note I read about the Intel Optane Memory feature supported by the Z270 Gaming Pro Carbon and i7-7700K CPU - and 32Gb seems affordable to make a HDD behave like a SSD on amazon, this will make for snappy very compact built, and in the near future (with HDD NAS Drives) I might use the second m.2 port for that effect.  Have you tested Intel Optane Memory on any of your system?

Regarding the MSI utility software and I am trying to decide which ones I'd need to install in order to reduce the amount of bloatware:
https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/Z270-GAMING-PRO-CARBON.html#down-utility&Win10 64

I found a good z270 carbon Pro motherboard review link listing them (on page 4):
http://techreport.com/review/31172/msi-z270-gaming-pro-carbon-motherboard-reviewed/4
or a more succinct overview :  http://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/msi-z270-gaming-pro-carbon-review?nopaging=1
Are all these utilities provided by MSI with their z270 spam-ware free and which utility do you find the most useful in your system?
I wonder for example the Live Update and Control Command app as that useful for the long run on a lean system.

Thank you again for the detailed answers.
Donat
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 08:37:56 AM by dpluigi »